Dan: 0:00

There's a video on YouTube of a dance routine created by choreographer Galen Hooks that's racked up nearly 50 million views. It's not a music video; it's a dance class filmed in a dance studio. The song is "River" by Bishop Briggs.

Galen: 0:23

I like very, very distinct intro-verse-chorus distinction. So, like, "River" has a very, very clear ramping up from the verse to the chorus.

Dan: 0:36

Galen likes that kind of musical movement because it translates well into physical movement.

Galen: 0:43

The song has to have acts in it, like an act one, an act two, an act three. It has to go somewhere and finish somewhere for me to be able to do that storytelling. So the songs that call to me have that built in to them. Each routine I do can only be done to that particular song. And a lot of choreography is stuff that you could do that choreography to any song that plays because it's just about the tempo and the repetition, and so it's not married to the exact nuance of that song.

Dan: 1:21

That's a really good point. I don't think that had really clicked for me. That like a lot of boy band style choreography, you could just swap it into a different song with the same tempo, right? And it would translate directly. Versus like what you did is very sensitive to like the lyrics of that song.

Galen: 1:37

Yeah, and I don't know that either is good or bad. Like there is great stuff about catchy things that anyone can do to any song. That doesn't mean it's bad choreography. It doesn't mean that mine is good. But it's how I operate, and that's where I feel most at home in choreography is doing things that show outwardly what I hear internally in a song.

Dan: 2:13

I'm Dan Heath, and this is What It's Like To Be. In every episode, we walk in the shoes of someone from a different profession... a TV meteorologist, an interior designer, a turnaround consultant. We want to know what they do all day at work. Today, we'll ask Galen Hooks what it's like to be a choreographer. We'll talk about the early stages in bringing a dance routine to life. Whether you can copyright choreography and what it's like to have to give a note to a global celebrity like Usher. Stay with us.

It Turns Out Promo: 2:54

On the It Turns Out podcast, we talk about research that will change how you see the world. An increasing share of the men who are not in the labour force are not unemployed; they're non-employed. In other words, they're not seeking work, and that's a really important difference because it's not just that these are men who like really want a job or looking for a job, but the jobs aren't there. There's actually men who've actually disengaged from the labour market. Great research on money, marriage, longevity, and more. Join us on It Turns Out.

Dan: 3:26

Galen is a commercial dance choreographer in Los Angeles. She works on music videos and TV shows and films, but also live events. And a lot of her creative work happens on the go.

Galen: 3:38

I choreograph mostly in. This sounds weird... in transit, either like when I'm driving or on a plane, or like I don't, I don't go into a studio and go, I'm gonna choreograph this thing right now. And that's because I'm listening to... For River, for example. So I would listen to the song in my headphones, and then I'll film myself doing like a physical sketch, I guess you could call it, of what I'm thinking.

Dan: 4:08

Of the whole song, or just bits at a time, or...

Galen: 4:10

Uh, usually. So it'll start with the whole song.

Dan: 4:13

Okay.

Galen: 4:14

Which in this case is like a minute of it. It's not the full like four minute song. So it'll be like a minute of like I know in general in the beginning I want it to be sparse and then on this part I want to hit these accents and then da da da da. But the thing that sucks is because I'm like in a public space and in transit, so I'll do this like in airport bathrooms or like in the bathroom on the plane. Like so I'm not playing the music, which means I have to really overemphasize physically what I'm doing so that when I watch it back I know what part of the song I mean for that to be.

Dan: 4:43

Oh yeah. Oh this is so interesting.

Galen: 4:45

Or I'll kind of like. Physically clap the intro tempo to kind of know what part I'm doing. I'm doing that so that I can dump it out of my brain, not remember it, and then watch it back later with as fresh eyes as I can, as if I've never seen it before. And then from there, I'll start to do like little parts. So I'll go like maybe I'm in the car driving. I'm in L. A. So I drive all the time. And then I'll park at the grocery store, and I'll go like, oh, I have this one part that I've been trying to figure out. I figured out those four counts, so then I'll just record myself doing those four counts. And then I just have a folder in my phone that's called "Prep", and it's got half-baked ideas of that. So like, if there was a book of like, you know, my prep process, it would be that Prep album of me looking super janky in LA with my pajamas on and looking crazy.

Dan: 5:33

So it would just be like a hundred short videos of you like trying out different things and iterating, and then you you watch one and you're like, I'm gonna keep that and dump that. Here's the next one, like that sort of thing.

Galen: 5:44

Yes. Exactly.

Dan: 5:45

And it's so interesting that they're not with the music. You just have it in your head enough, where you're just doing the visuals.

Galen: 5:52

Yes. So, like, not until the final, final, final process do I get in a studio, actually physically try it. Because everything I'm talking about is kind of sitting down when I'm filming it. If I'm in my car, whatever. If I'm in the airplane, I can literally only capture myself from like the waist up in a bathroom. So, not till I get very, very at towards the end of mentally sketching it out, do I get on my feet. Literally, see if it's physically possible, head to toe, and then maybe, maybe, maybe get dancers in the studio with me. My assistants. I might get like one assistant, two assistants, three assistants, have them in the room with me, physically trying it as well. And and that's like if I were painting, it would be like getting the details of the shadows and all that kind of filling in those final gaps.

Dan: 6:41

Sometimes Galen is cooking up her own choreography, like with the routine she created for River. But when clients engage with her, they're hiring her to realize their vision.

Galen: 6:51

We're being hired to do something. So the artist might say,"I want this to be, let's say, it's Gangnam style." I don't know. That came into my head as like something that's super repetitive for the chorus. So let's just pretend that Psy isn't in a. You know, I think he made up that choreography. But let's say he's hiring me as the choreographer, and he'll go. I want this to be something super catchy that repeats that anybody can do. A grandma can do it, a little kid can do it, anyone can do it. So then your job as the choreographer is, I have to come up with something that's super repeatable, right? So then another person might go, I'm coming out with a dance album and I want people to know I'm a really great dancer, so I want a chorus that feels like it's back in the Britney Spears days, and I want a million moves in this thing. I want it really difficult and varied and something super challenging, and I want to show people I can dance really hard. So your job is to do that. You know, you can suggest things, but like there's not a kind of template of structure of what you're trying to achieve.

Dan: 7:47

Galen loves creating choreography that tells a story, which is different from the style of other choreographers.

Galen: 7:54

There are choreographers who are really great at cool moves. That's my reductive term about it. Cool moves are like, you know, so like I've worked with Usher, for example. Usher is like the king of cool moves. If you think of how Usher dances, it is straight up. There's no other way I can put it than cool moves. They are moves that aren't tied to an emotion, a story.

Dan: 8:16

It's almost like just pure athleticism or something.

Galen: 8:19

Yes, it's for like pure entertainment and just cool value. It's for you to watch and go. That is the coolest s*** that I've ever seen, and I wish I could dance like that. When I do stuff for Usher, I'm often brought in for. So let's say it's like I did a music video for him called Ruin, and the opening scene is him in a bedroom with a girl. And so the concept is they walk into the room, they're taking each other's clothes off in a cool, interesting way, and then they dance together in a kind of flirtatious way, and then. They make their way to the bed and then so that is story. So that's not like we need cool moves for Usher. That is we need him to connect with a girl and for them to be... That's a complete... There's a whole storyline arc to that. But they're dancing all of those story beats I just said.

Dan: 9:08

Right.

Galen: 9:08

So some choreographers excel at that, and some excel at steps. Some do both beautifully. But I tend to be brought in to do story stuff. The Camila Cabello video Havana that I got nominated for a VMA for choreography for that. That is a similar thing. She's like in a club. There's a guy that she sees across the room. He needs to slide up to her, and they have a cat and mouse thing, and they need to have tension and be doing a face off, like that kind of stuff is like story driven prose in a treatment for a music video that is much different than they do a dance break, and it's like eight dancers with the artist in the middle, and they just face the camera and they dance.

Dan: 9:47

So like in in in the Usher example. Are you sort of modeling like here's here's the way I see this unfolding? You do this, and then she comes closer, and then he kind of like mirrors back what you did. Is that how it works?

Galen: 10:02

Not in that particular relationship, but I'm. It differs every time. So like right after that bedroom scene, they're in a kitchen, and so they wanted stuff in the kitchen. And I will have ideas. This is something. Let me give you a really specific idea of story.

Dan: 10:15

Yeah.

Galen: 10:15

They're in a kitchen and they're cooking, and I'm supposed to choreograph them cooking. They're cooking breakfast, so they're making. I'm like, I'm the one that's going to kind of have a suggestion of what they're making. So I'm like, they could be making waffles, and she's stirring the batter, and that's part of the choreography is her stirring the batter. And then I want him to grab a strawberry, put it in his mouth, and then she goes and bites the strawberry out of his mouth while it's in his mouth, and they do this kind of body roll thing. So like, I will very specifically pitch that idea, very specifically choreograph it because I I need it to match the music exactly. That's my jam is for it to be like perfectly tied to the music. He'll come in, and these artists have so much on their plate; it's ridiculous. So he's not just working on this music video; he's doing eight thousand other obligations. So I like to be very specific with him, and know exactly where his left foot is placed in comparison to the dancer's left foot for them to do that body roll. Exactly how he puts that strawberry in his mouth, I will show him with a strawberry. You're grabbing it with the leafy part on top. You're gonna put it in your mouth with the triangle part in your mouth. I'm that detailed. Right?

Dan: 11:30

This is so good. I love this.

Galen: 11:30

Because it makes a difference. And if you can picture being Usher, you're like, got it. As opposed to you grab the strawberry and now he's putting it in his mouth sideways and then she can't bite it because there's not enough depth in it if it's sideways, so she can't bite it out of it. All that is a waste of time.

Dan: 11:44

And do you find yourself in the position of having to give notes to people like Usher?

Galen: 11:50

All the time. All the time, but that's because the things that I'm describing about putting the strawberry in the mouth and the girl biting it out, it has to be done in a very particular way for the concept to work.

Dan: 12:02

Yeah.

Galen: 12:02

If I were doing the other thing I described of, we're just doing eight counts facing the camera in one formation. There's barely any. You would be giving like. Oh, make sure your foot really flexes on that part. Like a simple, simple, simple choreographic note like that. But the kinds of notes that I'm typically giving actors and and artists are like when she bites the thing out of your mouth make sure your body really reacts. It's their story. I'm basically directing. I'm much more of a director as a choreographer than a dance choreographer. So I'm going to give them notes about facial expression. I'm going to give him notes about specificity and the angle that his shoulders are at. I'm going to give him all those really detailed performance notes, but not dance notes. Like I'm not telling him. Not telling him how to dance. That man can dance.

Dan: 12:51

And do stars bristle at getting feedback like this? Like, do you have to kind of tiptoe around?

Galen: 12:57

Everybody's different. I mean, artists and actors are a unique species. They are unlike regular human beings. It is really wild. So they have a completely different psyche. They have different insecurities. All of them have an insecurity, but it's a very different insecurity than a regular, normal person would have. So some artists can really freak out. A lot of actors really, really, really freak out because they're not dancers and they have their insecurities and they have a lot riding on how they look. If they make a fool out of themselves, it can be a big problem. So the way that you give a note, it's not about the note, it's about how you give the note. And as you can imagine, if you're an actor that doesn't dance and they're like, we need you to do this huge dance scene, you're going to feel very, very, very self conscious. And so being corrected is something that is about the personality, the tone, the language, the voice, intonation of how the choreographer gives that note.

Dan: 13:58

So, what would this may be a hard question to answer, but but what would sound different between a note you gave to the insecure actor versus like one of your most experienced dancers in your studio?

Galen: 14:11

So, an experienced dancer, ideally, and for an experienced dancer, there is no discussion. You give the note, and they do it literally immediately. Like I was a dancer for thirty years. If I if I got a note, I'm doing that thing. Immediately, and I never want to be given that note again. I want to tick that off and go. I've got you. I have corrected that. You never have to worry about me having that arm out of place ever in my life again. If you're an actor, it can look like note is given. Actor gives excuse for why that thing happened, and like you know, like oh, I was just, I was just. This is an example. I was just, I was just marking it. I wasn't really going full out, right? Like that's a very, very common thing. I was just kind of feeling it out. That wasn't what I was actually going to do. And then everything can crumble. So then the next time they do it, they're more self-conscious, and then they start to clam up, and then they stop expressing with their face, and then they start to well, maybe we could change that part. And then the next day they come and they go, you know, I was thinking on this part.

Dan: 15:15

What if we just didn't dance at all?

Galen: 15:18

Exactly.

Dan: 15:20

And with your professional dancers, do the notes get more abstract or more concrete? Like, are you more likely to tell them you need to rotate your elbow slightly, or are you more likely to be like, I need more of a whirlwind effect here?

Galen: 15:35

Both, both. It depends on what the thing. If you're if you're choreographing something very, very precise, you can get extremely granular. Exact chin angle of the height of your chin, exact elbow position, like all of that. Ideally, in an ideal world, the dancer is has such body knowledge that they can make those adjustments as granular as you need to. Especially in something like a close up where those things really matter. If a chin angle is. Half a degree different, it makes the thing look different. So, you can get very granular. If it's something that's supposed to be a more organic scene where everyone just kind of improvises and swirls in around an actress in the middle, and they hit a pose, you can give those kind of just broad, colorful language. I need it to feel more like you can literally say what you just said. I need it more whirlwindy, and they should be able to know what you mean by that.

Dan: 16:26

Part of Galen's job is to find and hire dancers for the music videos she choreographs.

Galen: 16:32

I would say I'm one of a handful of choreographers that still holds in person auditions. I really, really enjoy holding auditions, but I just described it's kind of time crunch thing that's happening all the time. Often there's not time for an audition, and there's not budget for an audition because it it costs production money to hold an audition. So we do what we just call direct booking. So they need eight dancers. I know eight dancers. We direct book those eight dancers, or they do a picture submission, which is you know there's four or five major dance agencies. I hit up all those dance agencies. I say I need four dancers who are between five three and five seven. Send me pictures. They'll send literally thumbnail headshots of hundreds and hundreds of dancers, and I comb through and do selects of people.

Dan: 17:21

And in the casting, like how much is pure dancing talent versus the look?

Galen: 17:28

It depends on the job, but the look is almost never not a consideration. That's the way I would put it. The diamonds in the rough are the people that have a fantastic look, and they're just amazing, amazing dancers. It's very, very rare for people from my generation. Like, it's rare to be allowed even the opportunity to hire someone that's a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic dancer that just doesn't have the look. And it's very common that somebody wants to hire somebody from production, or the artist, or somebody wants to hire someone who has a fantastic look, and they're really not as strong as the other dancers you want to have. So your look is a major. I actually teach intensives on this because I think it's such a shame that a lot of dancers train their entire lives. I mean, you think about people that start dancing when they're three years old, and they're training their butts off the way an athlete would. And they never work because they have a haircut that's just like, nope, that's not the that is not the cut.

Dan: 18:28

Right.

Galen: 18:28

Or your makeup is off, or you don't know how to style yourself, and they just don't work because they can't get past the looks bar. But they have the talent.

Dan: 18:39

After the break, is choreography eligible for copyright protection? Stay with us.

This Is Uncomfortable Promo: 18:47

I'm Reema Khrais, and on This Is Uncomfortable, we talk about the emotional side of money... What it does to our relationships, our sense of self, and the choices we make. Each week, I talk with real people and experts about the parts of money we usually keep to ourselves. Tune in every Thursday to hear conversations and stories about life and how money messes with it. Listen to This Is Uncomfortable on your favorite podcast app.

Dan: 19:15

Do you own your choreography, like what you did for River, for instance? Like, is that protected IP in some sense, or no?

Galen: 19:25

Yes, that is such a great question because people don't often think about that. So, I have maybe twenty or so copyrighted pieces of choreography.

Dan: 19:35

Okay.

Galen: 19:35

And I am one of two people I know who are in our industry who have that. So, the unique thing about River is it's not work for hire. So, if I'm choreographing for Usher, that's work for hire.

Dan: 19:47

Yeah.

Galen: 19:48

Anybody that choreographs things in the entertainment industry is hired as work for hire, so you you don't own it. The record label owns it, or the studio that produces the film owns it. But because River is for a class, nobody's hiring me to do it. I can copyright it.

Dan: 20:03

Even though it's not your song. You still own that layer.

Galen: 20:07

Yeah, so I'm copyrighting the movement, excluding the song. Which it's not often needed to copyright class choreography because why would you ever need that or need to enforce it? But for someone like me, like many of my pieces go viral, so I actually have many instances where people use my work without my permission, so I need to do that. But you often don't need to do that if that's not something that you're going to come in contact with, is other people stealing your choreography. But that does happen to me often, so I'm actually very involved in dancers and choreographers' rights across the board for decades, I've been very involved. So like I helped unionize music videos for dancers, for choreographers copyright has been a huge thing on the docket of things that I wish if I could snap my fingers would change for work for hire. Because for example on Broadway... So when I say I'm a choreographer in L. A. in the commercial dance industry, one of the things that's very different if you're a New York choreographer choreographing for Broadway is they do have ownership over their choreography in New York. They get back end for the reuse of their work. So if you choreograph a Broadway show, you are getting paid for the reuse of your work every week from that box office.

Dan: 21:20

Oh, okay, yeah.

Galen: 21:21

For a choreographer in LA doing a movie, we don't get residuals from the movie.

Dan: 21:27

Huh. Yeah.

Galen: 21:29

That is a huge life changing different distinction. And Bob Fosse is the one that made that possible in New York, and we haven't had that sea change in LA. So the whole thing about ownership is a a really really big deal, especially so in this new day and age of a dance can make a song blow up on TikTok, and everybody does that dance, and the choreographer doesn't own it or monetize off of it, but it's helping the artist make however much money off of that single blowing up.

Dan: 22:03

Galen's work on behalf of choreographers, helping them stand up for themselves in negotiations, is something that she models herself. Even early in her career, she was never afraid to say no.

Galen: 22:17

And when I say I'm not afraid to lose a job, I went to an audition for Beyoncé when I was a dancer. She was doing a string of maybe like six music videos or so, and it was Get Me Bodied, Freakum Dress, a bunch of a bunch of videos all at once, which was a new thing at that time not not like artists weren't doing that yet. So at the audition. Her choreographer said, "You know Beyoncé is doing something historic here. This is a big deal. She's shooting several videos at once, and so the rate is going to be super low. From what I remember, it was like two hundred dollars or something for all of the videos, like very, very low." And he said, "But you know, if you got a problem with that, like just say something." Assuming that nobody would say something, yeah, because dancers never say something. That's why we're the bottom of the totem pole. But I love learning choreography. Like I'm a dancer because I love choreography. I'm not there because I want to dance for Beyoncé. I'm there because I loved the choreographers who were doing it. So I was like, let me just audition it first. I danced the routine, learned the routine, went out in my group, danced it, and then I just went up to the choreographer after and shook his hand and said,"Thank you so much, but I can't do it for that rate." And I left, and like his jaw dropped.

Dan: 23:29

That is amazing.

Galen: 23:30

His assistants who knew me, their jaws dropped, and I have no concern about like how that went over, and I have zero zero concern about never having danced for Beyoncé, even remotely, because that's just my like internal constitution. Most dancers would never do that because they want to dance for Beyoncé and they don't want to burn a bridge. I mean, that's this is kind of common across any industry, but you really really feel a pressure to not. I would put it this way... a lot of dancers would pay money to dance for Beyoncé. They'd be like, "I'll pay you. You don't need to pay me." But the big takeaway, I think, like all these years later, is that choreographer, who's Frank Gatson, by the way, Frank Gatson, he is like so supportive of me, and I didn't sacrifice his view of me. And in my head, I'm thinking, what they know is they can't mess with me. They're not gonna they're not gonna take advantage of me. That's the real thing. They're not gonna take advantage of me. And if that's the reputation I gain, I'm totally fine with that.

Dan: 24:34

What's the hardest part of the job?

Galen: 24:37

You know, the hardest part of being a choreographer in the commercial dance industry is there are a million limitations, but they expect you to produce gold with all of these limitations. And the limitations are becoming bigger and bigger as every year goes by. Those limitations are budget limitations, they're time limitations, everything's last minute. You're very, very, very rarely given the luxury of an organized, prepared, planned project where you have the time to actually think and like have air and space to breathe and be creative. That's why I love. You know, when I'm teaching my classes, like River was a class, I have all the time in the world. That's on my own time schedule, so I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with the luxury of space to breathe and think. When you're doing a music video, for example... nine times out of ten, the thing shoots yesterday. You know we need this done yesterday, and we have two dollars, and the artist isn't available until the day of the shoot.

Dan: 25:46

You'll have four minutes with them before we shoot.

Galen: 25:48

Exactly, exactly. But we need this to go viral, you know. And you're like, okay, and that's where the real skill comes in. And you know, I think an equivalent would be like if you have a makeup artist for a celebrity, you think like they just do makeup. It's like, but they're doing it in the van on the way to the event with, you know, in 150 degree weather, like that's when the actual skill of what we do as creatives really comes out. Anybody can be creative in a vacuum with like all the time in the world, but when you're given these really, really difficult constraints, that's when people who are absolute experts at what they do, it's so impressive to see them pull out great end product with zero help environmentally. That is extremely challenging.

Dan: 26:35

If a choreographer is fighting with someone on set or on site, who is it likely to be?

Galen: 26:42

The director.

Dan: 26:43

Okay. Yeah. Just differences in vision, usually, or more logistical things.

Galen: 26:48

So when we talk about choreographing for stage versus screen, I can choreograph something down to the "T" of exactly how the movement should look in the frame. And then if the director changes the angle of the camera, there goes that entire concept. So like it could be that the director goes,"I want them to wear this different kind of shoe now", and that shoe they can't dance in that shoe. It could be all kinds of things that like completely change your ability to do the thing that you just rehearsed for two weeks, super like super thoughtfully about, and then you get on set and they want to change it, and you're like, I have to undo or change or fix or swap everything that we just worked so hard on. So now you're literally doing damage control with the dancers, going, guys, everybody huddle. We're changing this entire thing. Then they're frustrated. They have to learn a whole new thing. Like directors and choreographers. You know, when I was a dancer, I would see it often, and I totally understand it now that I'm a choreographer. It's like this really really affects what's happening.

Dan: 27:50

So, Galen, we always end our episodes with a quick lightning round of questions. Here we go. What is a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know, and what does it mean?

Galen: 28:01

So, there are obviously tons of words and phrases that are like technically dance-based, but I'm going to deviate from that and do something that's much more industry-based. So, like instead of like a plie or something, and the phrase is "body conscious," and it's such a unique phrase because, okay, it's it's written in audition breakdowns to describe how the dancers should dress. So when I was a dancer, I would get this in my audition breakdowns, and as a choreographer, sometimes it's put in audition breakdowns, although less so. And you'll understand why as I describe it. So body conscious, you might think is like, oh, wear something that shows us the form of your body. So like some people will think that means a leotard or a unitard or like leggings and a top, something that just shows us the form of your body because you're being conscious of your body. But in LA or New York or commercial dance industry stuff, body conscious means show us as much skin as you possibly can. It means be as revealing as you possibly can, which is ridiculous when you think about it nowadays. But this term has been around like since the nineties, and so that means for women, you're showing up with legs out, arms out, you know, a lot of times midriff out, showing as much skin, as trendy of an outfit as possible, as if you just stepped out of a music video set for Lady Gaga, like you're like half naked. For men, it's like definitely arms out, maybe a tank top, maybe shirtless, you're asked to do at the audition. So body conscious is like a very, a very crazy term. That like nobody else in your profession would you be asked to do that to get a job, to apply for a job.

Dan: 29:44

What's a tool specific to your profession that you really like using?

Galen: 29:49

My phone. I've talked about my phone a lot on this so far. Like, I mean, if I were in the 80s choreographing, I wouldn't have this luxury of like filming myself in an airport bathroom stall.

Dan: 30:00

Yeah, I mean, that's a good point actually. Like, 25 years ago, how would you have done that intermediate work without the mobile phone and the camera?

Galen: 30:09

I mean, I started assisting choreographers when I was thirteen, fourteen. So I have papers from back then of stick figure drawings.

Dan: 30:19

No way!

Galen: 30:20

Of their choreography and count. So I would write down like one to. I would write down one through eight. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. With like and counts in between if a move happened on an and count. And I would draw a stick figure of what the move was, like, notating it like that, so my phone is important not just in the choreographic process of creating the thing, but when I'm on a job, I really, really love filming the rehearsal exactly how I'd like it to be shown to be able to show the director. Hey, this is the angle I'm thinking this should be from. I'm filming stuff all the time.

Dan: 30:55

What is a sound specific to your profession that you're likely to hear?

Galen: 31:00

This one was so hard. There's like my job is sound. It's music. It's counting. There's very rarely silence in my job. But like a random one I thought of is cheering. Cheering is something not everybody hears on their job, but we hear it at auditions. We hear it in class. We hear it at rehearsals. Like if you the first time you do a pass with the artist in there, it's like so exciting and there's cheering on set. There's cheering all the time. And then the most obvious one is if you're performing for a live audience, there's cheering. So like. I think that's something unique to our job that not everybody would hear all the time, and it's kind of nice.

Dan: 31:36

And is it just kind of generic supportive cheering, like you're you're you've got each other's back, or or is it cheering for like certain like killer moves that people did?

Galen: 31:46

Um, it's also like at an audition when I said there's like fight and there's grit. You're cheering for somebody that like you can see there like I am booking this job. You can see how hungry they are. That's the kind of cheering of like it's like a props cheering like like get it right because you're also on the side fighting for that same job. So you're not like yay good job, but you're like man that person like. Really went for it! Wow. In rehearsal, it's a visceral reaction of like watching something for the first time. When we do show and tells for a director or an artist, like you are viscerally reacting by applauding to the thing you've just seen. There's an energy on like those kinds of passes of watching the routine where the dancers are really going for it, as if it's the performance, and you just can't help but applaud. And on set, it's just really exciting. The first time you do a pass of something on set with the cameras up is very exciting for everyone behind the cameras because you're seeing for the first time, for the first pass, what this thing is going to look like. And I'm assuming that this thing looks good. Sometimes there's like no, but when it looks good, it's really exciting. It's the first time they're in their costumes. It's the first time they're in their hair and makeup. Like the whole thing comes together. So the applauding is for different reasons every time, which also makes it very fun.

Dan: 33:04

What struck me about Galen is that even though her job puts her in close proximity to global celebrities, she didn't seem intoxicated by that.

Galen: 33:14

I've been working in the entertainment industry since I was seven, and I never have done it because of the celebrity of it all. For example, so I've danced for Britney Spears, Janet Jackson, and I never had on my vision boards. I never made a vision board, but if I did, I was never like I want to dance for Britney. I would think I want to dance for Brian Friedman, who's her choreographer, or I want to work with Jamie King, who's her creative director. And it's it's not that I'm not a fan of Britney and I'm not a fan of Janet. I am a huge, huge fan of them, but I'm not... My job as a dancer is not about the proximity to the stardom. It's about executing what that choreographer and that creative director need. And I just love the process of learning choreography and trying to get it as awesome as possible. I love that that feeling. So that was always my drive, and I really value. This is so it sounds so woo woo, but I do, I value myself as a person. I value my talents. I value my expertise, and so I. I feel like if I'm going, I want to be next to Britney Spears. I'm not giving myself that value to just say I want to be next to Britney Spears. I don't know if that's making sense. I've never really verbalized this. So I don't... it's a word vomit.

Dan: 34:38

No, I love what you're saying. No, it totally makes sense. Yeah, and I the the way you're like name checking the the choreographers rather than the stars. Like you're someone who appreciates the craft of choreography.

Galen: 34:53

Yes, and I will still sit there and watch Britney Spears and be like, Oh my God, she's so good. But that's not why I'm doing it, even remotely. And in fact, like sometimes it's in spite of it. So let's talk about like if you go on tour, they'll go out to parties after every show, and I was like, I don't want to go to a party. Like this is not. I don't like that kind of part of it. I don't like the wildness and the and the celebrity and the craziness of all of that. I don't enjoy that. I enjoy, yeah, I enjoy the craft of actually dancing or actually choreographing, and that's my flow is just doing the thing, not all of the other bells and whistles.

Dan: 35:39

Galen Hooks is a choreographer and dancer based in Los Angeles. We'll have a link to her website, Instagram, and YouTube page in the show notes. And you really, really should check out that video for River that we talked about. You'll immediately understand why fifty million other people have found it worth watching. Galen's story of walking away from the Beyoncé video... ? That was wild. There just aren't many young people who would have had the courage to take that stand. But honestly, the bigger deal is what Galen did after she acquired power and reputation, because she's been trying to shape the profession in a way that makes it more just for its members. Like how she contributed to the effort to unionize music videos for dancers, so that receiving reasonable pay wouldn't require an act of individual courage. It just becomes baked into the system, and isn't that the bullseye of what it means to be a professional? Being a professional doesn't mean just that you're good at your job or that you're experienced at it. It's that you are willing to invest in your profession, even if that investment doesn't benefit you personally, because you care enough to fight for the next generation in hopes that their experience will be a little better than yours. Working out ideas in cars and airport bathrooms, using movement to tell stories, doing creative work under impossible constraints, and ultimately conjuring the artistry to make music visible. Folks, that's what it's like to be a choreographer. A shout out to those kind people who gave us Season Two shout outs, or is it shouts out? I don't know. Anyway, thank you so much to Jacinta P., Elisabeth A., Eleni S., Casey M., and Don S. Grateful to all of you. This episode was produced by Matt Purdy. I'm Dan Heath. See you next time.