Dan: 0:06

I have to start with what has to be one of the signature aspects of the massage experience, which is that music, that,like, pan flute music. Where do you get that music?

Allissa: 0:23

I hate most massage music. I struggled so hard at the beginning of my career to find music that I didn't hate. And I actually played the same album. It was Mozart for Meditation. And it was 58 minutes. And at the time, most of the massages I was giving were 60 minutes. So it didn't repeat too much. And I listened to that for like three years.

Dan: 0:55

Really? Like in every session.

Allissa: 0:58

In every session, that thing just played on repeat. And, you know, this was 20 years ago when I started. So this was literally a CD player under my massage table, and it would be on repeat. And so we'd get to the end of the album. And you'd hear like that funny scraping noise as it's like the disc would repeat and start up again.

Dan: 1:22

And that didn't drive you crazy to hear that again and again.

Allissa: 1:25

It didn't, strangely enough, I think I kind of choreographed my work to it, which was good as a beginning massage therapist when you're trying to find your footing.

Dan: 1:37

Allissa Haines has been a massage therapist for 20 years. She recently brought that Mozart album back into rotation on her playlist, but she's not always the DJ for her sessions.

Allissa: 1:50

I had a client who used to regularly come in and bring his own playlist, and it was always heavy metal. And it was 90 minutes of heavy metal. And he was so into the playlist that he actually made it so that at like minute 89 of his massage, just ending, he would have it ending and it was a live performance. So there would just be like massive applause.

Dan: 2:37

I'm Dan Heath and this is What It's Like to Be. In every episode we walk in the shoes of someone from a different profession. A professional Santa Claus, a hairstylist, a piano teacher. We want to know what do they do all day at work? Today we'll ask Allissa Haines what it's like to be a massage therapist. We'll talk about how she learned to have uncomfortable conversations about undergarments, what her all-time favorite massage was, and what made her cry in her car after one particular house call. Stay with us. It was funny what you said about you were able to choreograph to the music, I've always been curious about that. Like, are there certain cues? You've heard the music so much, you know, when the triangle solo comes in, like you need to pivot to the legs or something like that.

Allissa: 3:32

That's exactly it. As a new therapist, timing and budgeting your time in a massage is hard to learn. And I think having that consistent music on, and just as the client was walking into the office, I would hit play. So I had a really good flow because I would realize when a certain song came on, oh, I really should have moved on by now. As a very new therapist, I kind of stayed on my foundational, it wasn't a routine, but I stayed on my flow. So it was usually like first 15 minutes would be head, neck and shoulders. The second 15 minutes would be arms and legs. The next 15 minutes would be mostly back and low back. And then the final 15 minutes would be legs and feet.

Dan: 4:21

I asked Alyssa how she starts her massages.

Allissa: 4:24

There is a moment at the beginning of almost every massage when I come into the room and I sit down at the head of the table and I cradle my client's head in my hands. And my fingertips are right up at the base of the skull and their whole head is sitting in my palms and I breathe and they breathe. And it is calm and it is peaceful and it gives me a moment to get out of my head and make the client my priority. And very often the client will take a deep breath as well and just sink into the table. And you can sometimes see people unclench. And that is a beautiful moment.

Dan: 5:10

And are people typically talking to you or just kind of in their own zone-out space or what's the norm?

Allissa: 5:18

Totally a 50-50 split, I think. Clients will often become chattier the longer they come to you because you develop a relationship and they may have told you they were stressed out about their kids. So the next time that they're in, you say, did you hear back from your kid's college? And they share a little more with you. I have found people get better treatments. I do better work when we are not chatting. So oftentimes I will say, all right, you gotta stop talking to me. I just massaged your arm twice and I have no idea if I massaged your other arm yet. So we've got to stop talking. As a massage therapist, I never initiate conversation because I never want a client to feel that they have to talk during a session. Some clients need to. Their anxiety is off the charts. And if they don't have something happening in their brain, they can't relax at all. And with those clients, it's actually sometimes it's a goal to get them to the point where they can calm and not talk for just 10 minutes. And that's a win. And sometimes it's, you know, an 87-year-old woman who lives alone and I'm the only person she's going to talk to that day. In which case, please tell me all about your cats. I want to know. And there's lots of clients who don't say more than two words. I'll say, are you comfortable in this position? Is that pillow in the right place? And they say yes, and we don't talk again for 60 minutes till I tell them their massage is up.

Dan: 6:40

Are there certain core moves that a massage therapist uses? Like, when you're back in school and you're dealing with your first clients and you're looking down at, you know, their lats or biceps or shoulders, you know, some big muscle group. What do you do? I mean, are you thinking long, firm strokes? Are you thinking circles? Are you thinking pressure? Like what are the kind of micro movements that make up a therapy session?

Allissa: 7:11

All of those things. You actually just nailed them. When I went to massage school 20 years ago, when I very first started, they taught us five particular massage moves. So you already named effleurage, which is a...

Dan: 7:24

Effleurage. Oh.

Allissa: 7:25

Effleurage.

Dan: 7:26

We love obscure terms on the show. This is great.

Allissa: 7:29

So effleurage is that long. It may be firm or it may be light depends on the kind of massage that's happening, but is a long, soothing, probably slow-ish stroke that is done with a full hand. And then there's a petrissage, which is if you kind of make your hands like they're little duck bills and you just kind of squeeze between your thumb and your fingers the tissue and you just kind of squeeze back and forth. That's probably the worst explanation of a petrissage, but there it is. It's kneading the tissue.

Dan: 8:01

This is what we do to our significant others when they ask for like a neck massage or something. We're doing the, what did you call it? The petrissage.

Allissa: 8:08

Petrissage. And it's actually probably the technique I use the least because as you probably know, your hands get tired very fast doing that. And the bulk of the work that I do is more about leaning in with my body weight versus using hand strength. So you give someone like a shoulder massage for five minutes and your hands hurt.

Dan: 8:29

Yes. So that's why We're just using bad body mechanics.

Allissa: 8:33

Oh, you're doing it totally wrong, Dan. You're doing it the way one should when you are not a massage therapist with a proper ergonomic table in front of you. And then there's compression, which is just leaning into the tissue, probably with a broad hand or a forearm. And then there's tapotement, which is like massage of the movies where they're like percussion, like patting the back or hitting the back.

Dan: 8:57

Right.

Allissa: 8:58

Also, I don't think I've done that since massage school. It is a great technique for certain nervous system things. It's not the kind of work that I do.

Dan: 9:07

I haven't thought about that in years, but you're right. That is like a TV movie kind of thing, the karate chop thing on the back.

Allissa: 9:13

That is Hollywood massage.

Dan: 9:15

So that's out of style now?

Allissa: 9:17

It's not necessarily. I think there's probably lots of massage therapists who do it. I don't use it in my practice. Because I'm working with people with anxiety, I'm not going to start hitting them at the end of their massage to wake them up. So, yeah, there are a handful of kind of classic moves. But again, there is no good agreed upon language in the field. So somebody else who went to a very different kind of school before or after me might call these things totally different or tell you that my definitions are absolutely wrong.

Dan: 9:50

That's so interesting, isn't it? Because I think anybody who's had massages knows like it's a totally different experience with a different therapist. And it sounds like part of that is because there's just no agreed upon way to teach this. Yeah?

Allissa: 10:06

Absolutely. And I always ask people when I meet colleagues and we talk about school, I always ask, like, did your massage school teach you a routine? And it's really a 50-50 split. Like, my massage school actually taught us a particular sequence that became the foundation for other kinds of work. and I haven't done that exact sequence since I graduated from school, but it is probably the heart of my work, how I think through and plan a session where I have colleagues who never learned a sequence. So they kind of created their own, but the work they learned for specific parts of the body is very different from what I learned as well. It's really fascinating. It's a crazy, broad, varied field.

Dan: 10:53

What does a typical workday look like for you? Like how many clients are you seeing in a day?

Allissa: 10:59

I see four to five. I feel like technically I'm kind of part-time right now. I work three days a week, four to five clients a day. But in my prime, I was working five days a week, five to six clients a day. So nowadays it's a little slower, but I get into my office. I usually have a big cooler bag full of food because I tend to work two days in a row. So I go in that first morning and I pack my fridge full of all my meals for the next two days. And I fold a whole bunch of laundry and I set up my room. And I'm usually at the office at least an hour before my first client because I have a lot of like heating devices I need to turn on. I've got like a hot towel cabbie that actually warms up some pillows and a table warmer. And I've got air cleaners running in the room and it takes me a little while to get the room set up. And a client walks in and I give them a massage. And then usually I have a half an hour, sometimes 45 minutes before my next client. I choose to have longer gaps between my clients. A lot of massage therapists don't have the option to do that, or they choose to just have like 15 minutes. But I will see four to five clients, maybe back to back, maybe a longer break in the middle, depending on the day. And then I fill my laundry bag full of four to five sets of linens and I head home and I throw them in the wash and I fall into bed and I do it the next day.

Dan: 12:28

And so if you were working a full-time load, that might look like 25 patients a week or something like that?

Allissa: 12:35

I think anything over 16, 17, 18 clients is a full-time load.

Dan: 12:43

Okay.

Allissa: 12:44

20 clients a week is definitely like a 40-hour-a-week job.

Dan: 12:48

Okay. So what was the hardest thing for you to learn as you started out? Like, what did it really take you a long time to grow into?

Allissa: 12:58

I think the communication skills with clients. You have to get really good at being comfortable with uncomfortable conversations. You know, it's somebody you've never met walks in your door and you have a conversation with them and you leave the room and they take off their clothes and then you touch them. And that's at its core, a little weird at first. And I was just telling one of my kids this, that getting comfortable with uncomfortable conversations is a huge life skill. The first few years of my career, I felt awkward every time I was talking to a new client. And I would say, in a minute, I'm going to leave the room so you can undress. You can leave your bottom undergarment on or off. However, you're most comfortable is fine. But like just getting the word undergarment out of my mouth felt so mortifying to me. And like, you know, born and raised in New England, we're Puritans over here. So I had to work through that. But that is like the first stumbling block is silly things like that. Or how am I going to verbalize that I'd like to do some work on this client's low back and hips, but essentially it's going to mean that I'm touching their butt. So learning how to say that professionally and comfortably, you really have to kind of get over yourself. But it can be so much bigger than that when someone is really uncomfortable giving personal information and you've got to ask a little bit more about their medication because I'm pretty sure what they just told me they're on is a blood thinner and I need to know if they've got a history of DBT or why they're on a blood thinner because I am not going to do deep work to their legs or anywhere else where they may have had clot issues.

Dan: 14:43

Gosh, great point.

Allissa: 14:44

So very like trying to make people very comfortable so that you can get the information you need to be safe, but also like feeling really squiggly and weird just enforcing your cancellation policy when someone forgets their appointment and I call them and say, hey, I thought you had a three o'clock appointment and it's 3.20 and they go, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And the next thing I have to say is, I understand things happen. I'm going to send you an invoice to pay my cancellation fee. And then after you pay that fee, you can reschedule your appointment. And it's oftentimes clients that you know and you love and you don't want to charge them, but you are in fact running a business or refusing a client because they come into your office sick. And someone comes in and their eyes are runny and their nose is runny and they got a wet cough and you're like, I cannot. Back in the olden days, this used to happen a lot more. Nowadays, people are much more thoughtful. But, you know, and having to say to this person who already feels awful and just wants to get a massage that I will not be spending an hour in a small room with them. And that feels yucky. That's only happened twice in 20 years. So I feel really good about that.

Dan: 16:00

Hey folks, Dan here with a fake ad. Ad because I'm going to pitch something. And fake because we're not getting paid to do this. So Matt and I both loved a book that came out last year. It's called The Work of Art by Adam Moss. It's about how artists do their work. And it's amazing because each segment of the book profiles a particular work of art and how it came to be. You can see the actual scrawlings of artists in their notebooks and the failed attempts and the false starts. And the artists profiled range from Tony Kushner to Kara Walker to Ira Glass. If you like behind-the-scenes stuff, like the podcast Song Exploder, for instance, and you like art, I'm telling you, this is a must-read. It's probably my favorite book from the last several years. There is a buy link in the show notes. And now, back to our show. Just a heads up here, since I know some of you listen with kids, the next part of the interview deals with some adult themes. If you want to skip that part, just fast forward about three and a half minutes. That will take you to my question about how Allissa prices her massages. Thanks. I saw a website that had an article headlined, Problems Only a Massage Therapist Would Understand. And there was a whole category that was titled, Inappropriate Behavior. What forms does that take, and how have you learned to handle that stuff over the years?

Allissa: 17:44

I have had very few experiences of inappropriate behavior in my massage room, and that is indicative of my privilege. I started off renting a space in a chiropractor's office. So it was kind of a medically oriented space. So there was really nobody confusing me with a sex worker.

Dan: 18:05

Yeah.

Allissa: 18:06

So there wasn't a lot of confusion. Every so often I'd get a phone call and there's some red flags. Like there was a guy who, finally, I blocked his number because he called me like every two or three years to ask if I would give a massage without draping. So no sheets covering him. Because he's very sensitive to pressure and even sheets. And sometimes you can just tell by the cadence of how someone's talking that they are enjoying the conversation in a way that is not appropriate. And why are you asking me this? So, you know, finally, I was like, oh, now cell phones are invented. I can block this number. And I think I had him listed as a contact in my phone as "Undraped Session" for like years until I realized I could just block it. I've been really lucky. I've had one or two experiences, typically with a male client, where I think they were hoping I would also provide sex work. And only one time I had to say, "You know, you're wriggling around on the table a lot. Are you uncomfortable?" And, you know, a very awkward, "No, I'm fine." And I was just so brave that day. And I don't think I've ever been that brave again, where I said, "Is this not the massage you were expecting it to be?"

Dan: 19:15

Oh, you did. Good for you.

Allissa: 19:16

I did. And he said, "No, no, no, it's fine." Like, "Okay, great." And then he understood that I don't provide sexual services.

Dan: 19:24

Yeah.

Allissa: 19:24

A lot of my colleagues, especially if they're employees, they might be in environments that do not do great screenings of new clients and don't weed these people out. But does it happen? Yes. Sometimes people think that any given massage therapist is also a sex worker. And sometimes they're right. Frankly, there are massage therapists who also provide sex work. There is a reason that's a stereotype. So we all have a lot of feelings about how that could be solved by regulating sex work, but we're a couple of decades away from that, I think.

Dan: 19:55

What do you attribute your own kind of lack of major problems in that area to? Do you think it's the screening or do you think it's just like the source of referrals or like how do you kind to keep that stuff at bay.

Allissa: 20:08

Yeah, all of that. It is the screening. People have to give me a phone number and an email to schedule. I don't take same day appointments. I used to back in the day, and that actually led to one uncomfortable situation. You got to fill out a medical intake form. I'm getting your date of birth and a signature. I actually, that was an uncomfortable situation. Somebody called me in the morning. They booked for that day. They came into my office. I hand them a clipboard back in the day before we had online intakes. And he was like, what's this? I said, this is an online intake form to get enough of your medical history so I can apply a safe massage. And he just kind of looked at me and went, I forgot my phone in my car and left and did not come back. So that solved itself. And just the wording that you choose on a website, the way you describe your work, the professionalism or not of the headshot that you put on your website, that all plays in and also a little bit of luck.

Dan: 21:04

How do you know how to price massages?

Allissa: 21:09

It is a crapshoot. The standard guidance that I take myself and give to others is give a quick look around at your area and see what people are charging. And then look at your schedule, what you want your schedule to be. And like with that average amount and your average schedule, would you be making the money that you want to make? Yes, no. Do you need to charge a little bit more to take home what you want to take home? So I like to look at the environment, but then not get too swallowed up by that. If everyone around me is charging $120 an hour, that doesn't mean I can't charge $125. And then there's a lot of layers, right? Like, I charge a little more than people in my area, but I've been doing this 20 years and I do not take tips. My pricing is inclusive. It's just me. I own the business. There's no need to tip me. I have not taken tips in 15 years. I raise my prices every 18 months-ish, and I make sure they're always a little bit higher. I don't want people coming to me because I'm a value-cheap massage therapist.

Dan: 22:18

This sounds like good business strategy here. You're not allowing yourself to be commodified. You're intentionally pricing above the market.

Allissa: 22:26

Yep. But yeah, pricing is really tricky, and it has a lot of feelings. You get into a lot of talks about valuing your work. and I try to throw it all out the window and just make sure I'm taking home the amount I want to take home at the end of the average week.

Dan: 22:41

This guy cuts my hair that I've known for years and he is so busy. I mean, people love him and I have to make appointments like six months in advance, no joke. And I'm like, dude, you've got to just raise your prices. I mean, that's what happens when you have more demand than supply, but he's just very uncomfortable about it. I just think he empathizes with his clients almost too much.

Allissa: 23:04

Yeah. And, you know, we think that we're going to be letting people down. If we raise our prices and they can't come anymore or they can't come as much, we think we're going to be hurting them. And the reality is we're not that special. Like, you know, a good massage therapist that you match well with is quite valuable. But no one's world is going to end if they get a massage every six weeks instead of every four weeks.

Dan: 23:27

Right.

Allissa: 23:27

Because I raised my prices and they need to fit it into their budget. Like, I'm not that powerful. I'm not so important that me raising my price $15 is going to ruin someone else's life or wellness.

Dan: 23:42

So, Allissa, we always end our episodes with a quick lightning round of questions. Let's do this. What is the most insulting thing you could say about a massage therapist's work?

Allissa: 23:54

All right. Well, it's only insulting if you take it personally, and I try to not do that. But I get really piffy if someone suggests that massage doesn't work because one massage didn't work for them. Like, dude, you've been working on that shoulder issue for 20 years and you're never going to stop sitting in front of your computer for eight hours a day. I can't save you and no one can save you. But the problem is not massage.

Dan: 24:17

What is a sound specific to your profession that you're likely to hear?

Allissa: 24:22

Lots of quiet punctuated by deep breathing.

Dan: 24:26

The client's.

Allissa: 24:27

Yep. And the practitioner, because we can co-regulate. When I can take slow, long breaths, the client will unconsciously start doing that as well.

Dan: 24:41

Oh, really? They're mimicking you and they don't even realize it.

Allissa: 24:45

Yep. It absolutely happens. You just co-regulate.

Dan: 24:49

What have you learned about feedback from the client's body? Like, can you tell when you're using too much force or too little or have you learned to read people's bodies?

Allissa: 25:02

Yeah, the signals are pretty, they're usually clear. When someone, you're working on someone and they tense up a little bit. And sometimes you have to ask, like, is that a tickle response? Or am I using too much pressure? And then they'll kind of clarify what made them flinch. And then you can move forward and adjust your work. When someone's flinching and tightening up, then you can't do anything to loosen the muscle while they're in a clench, right? So it's the communication. It's being comfortable saying, "All right, what did you feel there that made you flinch? Was it pain? Was it tickle? Was it something else?"

Dan: 25:34

What is it that makes a client session better for you? Like, if you go home and you're on a high, like what made it a good day?

Allissa: 25:46

You know, sometimes you can just get into your work and you have a flow. You get out of your head and you have your plan, but you're not so stuck to it that you can't adjust. There are times when you just get in a zone. And I've only ever felt this with writing as well. So you probably can relate to that. You get in a zone and it is just coming out of you. And that happens with massage. And I off the top of my head can think of like three of the top five massages of my career that I've given.

Dan: 26:19

Really? That is so interesting. I did not expect you to recall like particular massages that were like at the top of your charts. That's so interesting. Like what's number one on the list, you know, without needing to give out details?

Allissa: 26:32

I had a client who has since passed away and he saw me. I actually looked it up yesterday. I had 412 appointments with him over 12 years. He came in. Yeah. There was a period of time where he was coming in very regularly, like once a week. And he was a young man. He was an athlete and a coach. And to see someone that often and to get to know their body, like I used to joke, like I could pick your left foot out of a lineup, like blindfolded. I could pick out your left foot. And you know their body and you know how it responds and you know what might need more work on a given day. And it was really fortunate because this client was also, you know, an athlete, so very good at communicating what was going on with his body. There was no guesswork. And as a new therapist, because I think I'd only been working for a few years when he came to me, to have that kind of client and that regularity and someone who was just willing to let me try anything on him. And was so gracious about me fumbling and poking something by accident and tripping over myself. And he probably got like three of the top five massages of my career. But I remember one in particular, and it was 90 minutes instead of his normal 60. And he had a hip thing, and I just felt it. I felt where the tight muscle was, and I did the right things, and he never had that pain again. But like, yeah, it's happened a few times, and I enjoy it every time.

Dan: 27:57

I don't know why it didn't dawn on me earlier that, I mean, you probably have more familiarity with some of your clients' bodies than their own loved ones. You know, I was just laughing about what you said about being able to spot his left foot in a lineup. I wonder if you could pass some of those recognition tests better than their own spouses.

Allissa: 28:19

Yep, absolutely. And, you know, it's amazing because for some people, the massage therapist is the only person who is ever looking at their full back. And, you know, I've actually pulled a lot of ticks off of people. And, you know, like usually in the center of the back where you can't see or reach or the back of the leg where you don't see. I have a lot of colleagues who are very well trained in spotting irregularities and moles and stuff, which becomes very important when someone's not looking at your back very much. And, yeah, it's really wild that we see as much as we do.

Dan: 28:53

Oh, gosh. So it's almost like you're kind of like an armchair dermatologist as well.

Allissa: 28:58

There is a beautiful training course for massage therapists to teach us how to recognize things and how to communicate that to the client in a way that honors our scope of practice and doesn't go overboard or we stay in our lane and also gives the client what they need to contact their doctor effectively.

Dan: 29:17

Allissa told me about another client who she's known since the beginning of her career, and they actually became friends.

Allissa: 29:24

I have worked on her mom and her husband and her two children and then the baby that she had who is graduating from high school this year. Like when these pediatric clients that I see are now driving themselves to my appointments, this girl I knew when she was a nine-year-old swimmer. It is so beautiful. It is so rewarding.

Dan: 29:46

One of the most cherished moments of Allissa's career happened when she was working with her friend's aunt, who was fighting cancer.

Allissa: 29:54

It was before I had my oncology massage training. So I actually, when my friend was like, hey, can you see my aunt? She's got cancer. I was like, you know, you should go to this other person who has training. And then a year or two later, her cancer had resolved, her treatment had ended, and the aunt started coming to see me. And over the six years that I saw her, oftentimes every other week, over those six years, she had a few more rounds of cancer. And ultimately, last year, the year before, she ended up at home with hospice care to die. And she was in a lot of pain and her family was caring for her. And my friend called and was like, "Can you come and work on her?" And I was like, "Yeah, you know, I've never done this particular type of end of life massage before, but it's you. It's your aunt who I know very well. It's your family that I know very well. And I am going to come do this." And I went to the house and, you know, they had like the hospice bed in the living room. It was that kind of situation. And my friend was there and the client's husband was there and sister and all people I had probably sat with at Thanksgiving at one point or another. And the client was in a lot of pain. And I worked with her for about a half an hour. And she was in and out of consciousness, mostly out of consciousness. She was there enough for me to say, "I'm here. Is it okay if I massage you?" And she nodded. But very end of life stuff. Just some gentle massage to the areas that I knew were going to be sore on her because I had seen her every other week for six years. And, you know, I did that massage and I left and cried in my car for 20 minutes. Later that night, she passed away. And my friend and the client's husband told me later that she was so much more peaceful for the rest of that day and actually needed far less pain meds for like the next eight hours. And then she died peacefully. Like knowing that you helped someone die more peacefully and knowing that their family didn't have to watch her suffer quite so much. There is nothing better than that.

Dan: 32:10

Allissa Haines is a massage therapist in Massachusetts. We'll have a link to her website in the show notes. The word that kept coming up for me after this interview was "boundaries". There's the obvious association that you're probably thinking of right now, like making sure a massage stays a massage, setting a boundary so that guy who calls for an "undraped" massage buzzes off and goes somewhere else. But it's not just that that I'm talking about. It's also business boundaries. It's having the confidence to say, look, I'm sorry you can't bring that snotty nose in here. It's saying, if you no-show, you have to pay. Not because I'm punishing you, but because I held that time for you, and this is how I make my living. Those of you listening, in the work you do, do you feel like you have to police various kinds of boundaries? What's interesting is that massage work also involves relaxing boundaries in a way. I mean, this is a job, let's not forget, that involves a stranger undressing in a dark room and you laying hands on them with no one else around. To make that odd experience feel normal and comfortable for both of you, that's a real art form. Choreographing sessions to Mozart music, hauling loads of linens home to wash, readjusting prices with discipline, practicing good body mechanics and sinking breaths for shared calm. Folks, that's what it's like to be a massage therapist. A shout out to our recent reviewers. We read every single one of them, including this one from TexYorker on Apple Podcasts. So much fun and fascinating. I'm gobbling episodes like potato chips. This is a guilt-free binge, folks. Have at it. Thanks to Jamyla Krempel for her scouting help. This episode was produced by Matt Purdy. I'm Dan Heath. See you next time.