Dan Heath: Eric Sasson is a summer camp director. He grew up going to summer camps as a kid, and some of his memories involve classic camp hijinks like when two opposing teams of campers would target each other in the cabins.

Eric Sasson: So we used to have what we called sock wars where we would just ball up our socks. And back in the '80s, the socks were really long, so there was a lot there. And just declare a sock war and just run and help each other with balled up socks. And again, like, it probably doesn't sound that interesting to you, but-

Dan Heath: That's just good, clean fun. I mean, come on.

Eric Sasson: It was good stuff. Good stuff. Yeah.

Dan Heath: But camp wasn't just about silliness and pranks. For Eric, camp became a place where he could be someone different from the kid he was back home.

Eric Sasson: It was a chance to kind of just reset, you know, like June 25th, here I am in a new place and people are like, "Hey, who are you?" You know? So you get to say like, who you are. And for me personally, I was kind of like the bad boy at camp where I was really the opposite at home. My sister was difficult and my parents were focusing on her and I was always getting good grades and doing what I was told. And at camp, it was just like a chance for me to do a little bit differently from that.

Dan Heath: Were you conscious of that at the time, do you think?

Eric Sasson: I don't think so, no. I mean, an 11-year-old boy's not conscious of that much really. So, but it didn't take me that long. I think it was before adulthood that I realized there was something going on there that was different for me. And the way I felt at the end of that summer was so intense and sad. And it was a whole mourning that went on after that summer that really gave me the bug to wanna go back really forever.

Dan Heath: I am Dan Heath and this is "What It's Like To Be." In every episode, we walk in the shoes of someone from a different profession. A cattle rancher, a high school principal, a stadium beer vendor. We ask them what they do all day at work. Today we talk to Eric Sasson and learn what it's like to be a summer camp director. We'll talk about why summer camp activities haven't changed much for decades, why it's getting harder to find reliable camp counselors and what his favorite moment at camp is each day. Stay with us. Eric and his wife, Debbie co-direct Camp Akeela, an overnight summer camp that sits on 400 wooded acres in Vermont.

Eric Sasson: And we work with kids who are on the autism spectrum and what they used to call Asperger's but now is referred to as ASD one or undiagnosed quirky kids who needed little extra help making friends and some social coaching. We have about 120 campers in each of our sessions, each of which is about 3 1/2 weeks long. And with those 120 kids, we have a staff of about 110, actually. A lot of staff members living with us. And the staff's there for the whole, you know, they come early June and they're there through mid-August.

Dan Heath: So one of the things that is so intriguing about your role is number one, I mean, this is a full-time job for you, right? I mean, people should not be coming to the show thinking, "Oh, this is just something you do in the summers." Like this takes all year, yeah?

Eric Sasson: Yeah. But I guarantee that people are coming to the show not realizing that. Because this is my life. And you know, I joke about it, but every camp director has a bit of a complex and is super defensive about this topic because we spend our whole lives going to, you know, wherever parties and, you know, the kids soccer games, whatever it is. And I'd say 90% of the people out there in the world ask, you know, the killer question, which is what we do the rest of the year. You know, that's like, "Yes, this is a job."

Dan Heath: And it's incredible that you kinda go from, I mean, what's your core staff when it's not camp season?

Eric Sasson: Mine is about five. So my wife and I are the directors and we have an assistant director who does primarily staffing, but helps us with everything. We have a site manager who's on property 'cause we have a 400-acre property and we're always building and fixing and, you know, growing and all that stuff. And then we have a director of our team program. So we're like a team of five year round.

Dan Heath: I mean, I'm just thinking of, you know, the comedy of looking at your employee count, like on a chart and it's like five, five, five, five, five, five, 100. I mean, that must be a shock to the system to have, you know, such an intense difference in the operational complexity, you know, in the summer versus the rest of the year.

Eric Sasson: Yeah, and it's mirrored by a total change in lifestyle too. Right? So my job is with four other people for 10 months and it's based in Philadelphia and I'm in an office and I'm doing primarily phone computer work, you know, more or less like it's an office job. And then on, you know, May 28th I go to camp and almost nothing is, you know, like my job has almost no characteristics that are similar to the other 10 months. You know, once the 100 people get there, it's, you know, being a motivational speaker and you know, like figuring out how to connect tether balls to poles and, you know, and like fixing septic systems and, you know, training staff, it's like everything's different running around, you know, like when kids are, you know, having a hard time. So it's a strange career, it's really odd, but I'm fascinated by people who have to do the same thing all year round. You know, my whole life has been from the academic calendar to the camp calendar. So for me, like summer's always different and I just can't believe some of these poor slobs like have to go to the office in July. It's weird.

Dan Heath: But you know what's interesting about it? At first, I was gonna say it's kinda like a performance or arts career where, you know, maybe you're getting ready for the Broadway performance, but it's really not like that 'cause you're not like rehearsing in the off season. It is really unique. It's like you've got 10 or 11 months that's primarily like a staffing and recruiting challenge, and then all of a sudden you're like, you're managing a small town effectively.

Eric Sasson: Yeah. I often describe our job in the summer as being a mayor of a city. You know, there's just, it's all the infrastructure and all the people skills and the program, you know, functions and yeah, it's exactly what, and like it's nothing like that in the rest of the year. It's preparation for that, but not rehearsal for that, yeah.

Dan Heath: So just give us a slice of life, like as the mayor of the town in the summer. Like what are the kinds of things that you're worried about day to day?

Eric Sasson: Well, one thing I love about it is you never really know what each day will bring. So there's lots of stuff I'm worried about. And if I'm prepared to do those things the following day, inevitably, I'll get to none of them because you wake up and there's 230 people involved and they're always gonna bring it in a different direction. So I think that's scary and takes a certain kind of personality to like, but for me, it's great because I can't really even plan my days in the summer because I'm always gonna be running around putting fires out. Not literally, but hopefully not literally. A lot of camps are remotely located, so we're like 35 minutes from emergency services. So my wife and I are basically operating a full sophisticated health center in the middle of the woods. We have a commercial kitchen, you know, we're serving 230 people four times a day, five times a day, including snacks, you know, food service and all the ordering and management and safety that goes along with that. And then, you know, we're running sophisticated programs. You know, lake is super dangerous, so always thinking about camper safety and ropes courses. And we have kids out every day hiking in the wilderness. Hiking and camping and driving in 15 passenger vans. And there's all these sort of risks that, you know, that are constantly on our mind. And then if all that is going smoothly, which it generally does, the people stuff is always the hardest part of any job. So it's two counselors who aren't getting along. It's, you know, a camper wants to go home. It's a million different things that happen just because we're all living together in this tight space, you know, for a short period of time.

Dan Heath: I imagine those first few hours after drop off are just a really tense emotional period. Like, how have you learned to manage that period to sort of get kids engaged and help them navigate the transition to being on their own?

Eric Sasson: I think a lot of it happens ahead of time. I think what we've learned over the years is that it's so much more difficult if the drop off is kind of the first time the kids are wrapping their heads around what this is going to be like and where am I gonna live and who am I gonna be with and all that. So it happens that way, but we've started to do a lot more before their arrival. So we meet every camper so they at least get to know us a little bit. We show them lots of videos, here's what the inside of a cabin's gonna look like, here's what the dining hall's like, here's what a typical menu is. We introduce them to their bunk mates, to their counselors on Zoom. One of the great benefits of COVID, which was almost an entire disaster for our industry, but one of the great benefits was like we all learned how to use Zoom. Like this is a great way to actually connect kids before they get to camp. So we'll do stuff like that. We send newsletters out that say, "In the first 24 hours, here's exactly what to expect." And again, I'm working with an autistic population, so like that's obviously, not every camp would do that to that extent. But I think that's all helpful in getting kids prepared to have their transition so that once they get there, they at least have some comfort with what time are things gonna happen. Who are these people that are in charge of this place? Oh yeah, I met them on Zoom for a couple times.

Dan Heath: What's usually the first big moment for campers when they realize, "Hey, this could actually be pretty awesome."

Eric Sasson: I think it's making a friend. I really think that's what did it for me when I was a kid. The activities were fun, but that's not gonna really keep anybody in that kind of space, I think, you know, long term. So it's really about the connection to the people and realizing that there's a potential here for a deep connection, a deep relationships that could last a lifetime. And no matter what we're doing, even if it's, you know, raining and you know, it's a miserable day and it's cold, or I have soccer on my schedule for the third time this week and I hate soccer, all of that goes away if you're with people that you just love hanging out with, and I think that's sort of the magic camp.

Dan Heath: And how do you, or do you sort of broker those relationships? Like how do you get kids that are slightly uncomfortable, away from home, missing their parents? How do you get them to kind of unwind a little bit and engage with new people?

Eric Sasson: I think a lot of it is the counselors are just who they are. So like if I were running a camp and I was trying to be the camp counselor at age 50, it would not work out well. But I think what's so amazing and unique about camp is that, you know, we don't really have teachers or parents or what I would call true adults living and working with the kids on a minute to minute basis. They're 18 to 25-year-old, really cool, you know, young, interesting, fun near pure role models. And to me, that makes the whole difference. So when they're the ones who are making the fun and you know, sort of creating an identity in a cabin group and finding the commonalities between campers, the kids are like, they're just there. They'll follow these people anywhere, you know, and including into relationships with each other. So for us at our camp, it I think first happens that the counselors are like, "Oh my God, these are guys I really, really wanna be like and be with." And then the counselor's job is to deflect some of that admiration and energy and positivity towards each other os that they're like making connections between the campers.

Dan Heath: How do you find great counselors?

Eric Sasson: It's getting harder to do because young people have so many options. And I think we're at a time when people in that demographic, you know, sort of the college kids of today are more prone to wanna collect experiences or build resumes through multiple experiences. So we'll get a great staff in one year and then we'll have to replace, you know, 60% of them the following year, even though they loved camp. Whereas back when I was a counselor, like everybody stayed for three, four, or five year. And some of them grew up at that camp, so they were like invested and they know your culture and you know, they wanna give back in the way that their counselors gave to them all. That's becoming harder because there's just more options out there for kids, you know, more internships and perception that they have to kind of do something that's directly related to their future career now, you know, after my sophomore year of college or else I'll, you know, I'm not gonna get the job that I want. So it's a little bit challenging, but we as an industry are selling the truth, the reality that working at camp, we're actually offering, I would say, the most significant experience that a young person can have with leadership, problem solving, teamwork, resilience, you know, hard work, long days. Like we're actually giving them what they're now calling the 21st century skills that I think every industry is looking for in their workers. And camp is starting to do and needs to do a better job articulating that working at a summer camp actually will prepare them for their life in addition to just being like an incredible magical summer where they're gonna be at their spouse. And yeah, I mean we spend most of our year really, to be honest, most of my time is spent looking for the right people to come work at camp in the summer.

Dan Heath: I don't know if you caught Eric's joke there where he promised potential camp counselors a magical summer where they might meet their spouse. He's kinda not joking about the spouse part. Eric met his wife while they were counselors at a summer camp. And this is gonna blow your mind. His parents met as summer camp counselors too.

Eric Sasson: I think summer is a natural aphrodisiac in some ways, as we know from Greece. Exactly you've seen Greece. And I think camp in particular brings people together in a way that's pretty unique. And when particularly two people work at a camp, so you're already starting with this common ground of like, you know, I love working with kids and you know, I'm here, you know, to make a difference in kids' lives, all that, you know, groundwork is already laid. And so I think, you know, you start meeting other people who are like-minded and then you throw them into this really intense 24/7 environment where a day feels like a week and a week feels like a month. And camp relationships just get really intense really quickly. And we've had 16 summers. And we're a small camp and our first few summers we had staff of like 20 people. We have now had 16 weddings come from staff members.

Dan Heath: What? Are you serious? Wow, that is totally fascinating. So it's just something about this kind of novel, you know, out of the normal world experience, the raw amount of time, the kind of unfamiliar situations. It's just like, it's catalytic for love apparently.

Eric Sasson: I think so. And there's no dating at camp, you know. If you meet somebody in the real world, which I wouldn't know, but I've heard, I've seen movies, you go on a date, right? You like them, you maybe go out the following week. At camp, you're just smooshed together all the time. So, you know, there's no dating really. You're just sort of living together, being together, working together. You see each other at your best and at your worst and overtired and grumpy and everything's just accelerated really quickly.

Dan Heath: I had never thought about how the camp counselors are basically just having their own camp experience just at a higher level.

Eric Sasson: Yeah.

Dan Heath: I mean, it's many of the same dynamics that fuel the experience for the young kids, you know. It's something very different. A lot of novelty, a lot of new connections.

Eric Sasson: Yep, yep. And it's this experience that, you know, before it's over, you know that nobody else in the rest of your life will really understand. So you can go home, we're back to college or whatever and say I worked as a camp counselor this year and you know, unless you live through it, you can only really talk to other people who are there to really have that sense of like, you get it. And I think that bonds people together in a really special way.

Dan Heath: Hey, folks, Dan here. This is the third and final installment of our summer job series. And by the way, on a happier note, this is also our 25th episode. We've got a lot more good ones coming up, including a life insurance salesman and a long haul trucker. Stay tuned for those. If you're digging the show, will you do us a favor and rate the show or leave a review or both? And by the way, did you know you can share podcasts? So on Apple podcast, there's a little button with three dots. Look for that button and click it and you'll see share. Boom. Text it to a friend, you help them, you help us. Everybody wins.

Give us, if there was gonna be a video montage of the scenes from the camp, like show us some of those scenes. I think I never went to camp, so it's like all I've got is stereotypes of there must be a canoe and a campfire and tell me what the actual scenes are.

Eric Sasson: A lot of them are like that and I think that's pretty cool. I think the movies don't get it right, but I think part of what's amazing about camp is that there are some rock solid reliable things that were there 100 years ago that are still gonna be there 100 years from now. So we still have campfires and I think that it taps into this really primal connection that we have when we, you know, sit together around a fire and sing or tell stories, you know, act out together. So a lot of that really traditional stuff exists at almost every camp in America still, which is awesome. And there's a lot of really silly, goofy things. You know, it's the only place I can think of where without blinking an eye, I have a junior MIT student, you know, who's gonna probably, you know, become an astrophysicist, wearing a cowboy uniform and you know, pretending to sneak in and steal the kid's snack because it's the concept of an evening activity where they have to sort of figure out, you know, who did it and you know, where they hid it or something. So like, just people being, being totally goofy and silly and kind of it being part of the culture that it's okay. So lots of moments of people on stage and elsewhere dancing silly ways, saying silly things, doing things that in the real world we might feel self-conscious about. I think at camp so much of that stuff happens and it's just like, it's not just okay, it's sort of supported by this warmth and sense that, you know, we can all be whoever we want here and we all, you know, appreciate each other for it.

Dan Heath: That's really interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that part of what camp is doing is like kind of relaxing inhibitions, like all the things that you feel like people don't want you to do or you're gonna get in trouble for doing or you'd be embarrassed to do, like you can do those here.

Eric Sasson: Yeah, I think that's right. I think it goes back to even if you go to a camp for many years, or even if you go to camp with people that you know from home, there's this otherworldliness to it that allows us to kinda set new norms and expectations. And so there's so much, you know, and I think schools do this really well, but it's harder because the kids go in and out of school every day for the most part if, you know, it's a boarding school. But you know, it's like you have to kind pf like reset expectations every time they come in. Okay, we don't use cell phones here, you know, we treat each other with respect, whatever the, you know, the sort of the school culture is. At camp, we're throwing people in and they don't get to leave. So it's like, you know, at the very beginning you just say like, "Here, unlike the rest of the world, we do X, Y, and Z, or we don't do X, Y and Z. You know, here's how we talk to each other. Here's how we don't use technology, here's how we can all act silly." And you know, all these things can kinda be set up as part of the culture and everyone goes, "Yeah, okay. Like that's what it is. This's just how it's here."

Dan Heath: What are your favorite moments to witness in the camp every year?

Eric Sasson: Well, we have this really cool thing at my camp in particular, although we did steal it from another camp, so I know it exists in lots of other camps and we call it evening meeting, but it could be called anything. And it's essentially like a Quaker style meeting short, but it's every night after dinner. And the whole community gets together and it's not about like the directors making announcements or, you know, lecturing the kids. We say almost nothing. And the whole structure of it is that anybody in the community can stand up and recognize somebody else for an accomplishment or an achievement or just an appreciation. So the things that we value as a community and they know what they are, it's like written above, you know, literally above the office door, you know, what are the sort of the tenets of this camp community? They are repeated back to us every night by kids and counselors about each other. And it's just incredible because like I said, we spend 10 months not getting to do this. We do all this preparation, we bring these people together and then we kinda get to sit back and hear that it worked. You know, we hear kids say, you know, "Can such and such please stand up I wanna thank him. We went on a hike today and he talked the whole time about his favorite video game and I love it too and now we're best friends." And again, at my camp, you know, the certificate, another sentence which is, you know, like makes me cry every time, which is, "I've never had a best friend before." Or, "I've never been anywhere where people really, you know, accepting me for who I am before." And, you know, every night, we get this feedback from the kids.

Dan Heath: And that must have been part of your original vision for this camp. I mean, it sounds like, as just to create a world where they feel at home and you know, they're surrounded with people like them.

Eric Sasson: Exactly, yeah. Which is not their experience elsewhere in the world. So it was easy to define, you know, in the negative of what they're experiencing elsewhere. You know, here, it's going to be different. We weren't sure that they would feel that or that they would be able to articulate that, but indeed that's pretty much what happens. You know, not all of them, but many of them say like, "This is the place I can most be myself," or, "I'm the best version of myself here," and that's exactly what we wanted.

Dan Heath: So Eric, we always have a lightning round of questions on our show. Here we go. What is a word or phrase that only someone from your profession would be likely to know and what does it mean?

Eric Sasson: One is 10 for two, which is this concept that we wait 10 months of the year for the two months to do what we actually love to do. And for seasonal staff, it means they they'll do whatever. Like they'll work at ski season or they'll like, you know, be literally without a job for 10 months just so they can come back to camp in the summer. So 10 for two is a big one.

Dan Heath: So people in any camp row would likely know that phrase, 10 for two."

Eric Sasson: Yeah, 10 for two. That's a good one.

Dan Heath: Love that. What's a tool specific to your profession that you really like using?

Eric Sasson: Golf carts. Every camp director loves their golf cart. And it's like a status symbol. Like no one else gets to ride the golf cart, just me. And if I'm around-

Dan Heath: It's like the up close parking space for camp directors.

Eric Sasson: Totally. You got it. Yep.

Dan Heath: What phrase or sentence strikes fear in the heart of a summer camp director?

Eric Sasson: Well, I gotta explain this a little bit because it seems like a bad answer, but if a staff member says in a certain kind of formal tone, "Do you have some time today? Can I talk to you about something?" So they come up to us, I mean, all we do is answer questions. So it's not like, "Hey, hey, I got a question for you," but like, if there's there's a certain tone I recognize, "I need to talk to you," that what's fearing me, because I know that that conversation's gonna be about the staff member leaving. "You know, I just don't think I can do it anymore." Or you know, whatever. Someone's sick at home. Which of course, if someone's sick at home, that's totally understandable, but often, that's not the case. They're just saying. So yeah, the sort of like, the quitting staff member entree, that's a tough one.

Dan Heath: What happens on the last night before they're ready to go home the next day?

Eric Sasson: Well, we have our last campfire. And as a camp director, I want maximum tears at that campfire. My staff think I'm just a terrible person because the more crying there is, the happier I am. And you know, closure's is really important. So I think a good camp understands how to create a beginning, a middle, and an end of each experience. And so I love your question because it's not another evening activity or just another night, we're really sort of thinking, you know, preparing kids in advance for going home for that transition, which is often a harder transition than coming to camp because they're going back to the world where people aren't gonna understand this camp thing and they're leaving their camp friends and it's not easy for anybody. So we talk a lot about preparing them emotionally for that transition back home. And then that last night is a very traditional campfire. At lots of camps and at my camp, the kids actually perform a song for the rest of the camp that is the sort of culmination and summary of their experience. So they take a popular song, they change the lyrics, and it's all this kind of, you know, self-referential stuff about inside jokes in the cabin and each kid in the cabin and what they loved and what they did and what happened. And it's kinda this love song to the summer that they leave the community with. So that's the majority of that final campfire. And then we sing sad songs, the sad or the better, you know, the "Jet Plane" is the last song and everybody cries and it's great.

Dan Heath: Do you cry?

Eric Sasson: No, no, I'm smiling.

Dan Heath: It's working.

Eric Sasson: Yeah, no, it's true. There is this like, emotional, I won't say detachment, but there is such a relief. You know, camp directors are so worried all the time. So it's joyful. I love what I do, but there's so much stress and so much responsibility when you're taking care of other people's children. And by the way, the people taking care of them are also basically children, right? 'Cause they're college kids. So there's this really mixed feeling at the end where I'm sad it's over. I spent 10 months waiting for this to start because it's what I love more than anything in the world. But it's such a relief that I got through it and people are okay. That literally, the kids survived it and thrived and I'm delivering them back to their parents, not just whole, but better than when I found them. So it's hard for me to be sad because I'm simultaneously just incredibly relieved that it's over.

Dan Heath: I'm trying to imagine what it would feel like as a parent to have your child kind of crying about having to go home with you. Like how do you manage the parents' emotions around all of this?

Eric Sasson: Yeah, I used to go home from camp. I would literally not talk to my parents for three or four days. They couldn't even engage me. You know, I was in my room, door shut. It's like, "You don't understand, you'll never get it. Leave me alone." I wanted nothing to do with them because I was so mad at them because they were the representatives of not being at camp anymore. So I totally get it so I can relate. And now I send my kids to camp. So I sort of see it from the other angle. But one thing I actually think is really cool about camp is that as staff members, as people at camp, it's hard to see the change in kids because we're with them 24 hours a day. So we spend a lot of time with our counselors reminding them that they're actually making a huge difference. They just can't see it. And one of the best parts of camp is pickup day or visiting day, depending on what kind of camp you run, where the parents come and they see their kids for the first time in three, four or five, six weeks. And they then reflect back to our staff and to us that they can't believe the transformation. You know, "Who is this kid? I've never seen him," whatever. He feels so confident or look so comfortable or have so many friends or, you know, be so self-sufficient and independent. Whatever it is that they're saying, they actually, I think are seeing that for the first time and saying it to us, which is great. But also I think that may provide a little bit of cover. You know, as the kids are crying, you know, about leaving, I think there's also joy in the parents that, you know, they've gotten something out of this that they wanted their kids to get. So I don't know how personally parents take it because I think they're also like, "Oh, this is a good investment. Like, my kid looks really happy, really sad to leave. So this must have been a good thing."

Dan Heath: Eric says, the fact that kids don't see their parents for 3 1/2 weeks is part of the magic formula of summer camp.

Eric Sasson: So kids are really figuring out when things aren't going well, when they're sad, when they're mad, you know, when they have a conflict with somebody, when they want something that they're not getting, they can't ask their parents and that's what they do all year round. So there's this incredible growth that comes from figuring out, "I need to advocate for myself and/or I need to find an adult in this community who cares about me and who knows me and is gonna be my ally, but it's not my parent." Or, "I'm just gonna tolerate this discomfort and I'm gonna, you know, push through it and feel great about myself 'cause I've developed some resilience and independence." So all of those things are great as compared to, "Let me text mom and have her advocate for me."

Dan Heath: You know, it just struck me that if you think about the kinds of books that kids read and, you know, young adults, novels and so forth, it's just like, the kids are always orphaned, right? Or they always have such ogres of parents that they're effectively an orphan. And it's like there's something essential to the psychology of those stories that you're on your own. And it feels like the camp is the chance to bring those stories to life for them.

Eric Sasson: I love that. It's like, you know, that sort of stereotypical hero's journey, right? Would Luke Skywalker have been Luke Skywalker if his parents had been on tattooing or whatever planet he was from, right? Like, I never thought about that from a camp perspective, but we're kind of recreating that in a really safe way, right? Your parents are fine, you're getting letters from them, everything's okay. You're not orphaned, literally. But I love that analogy because it is this sort of positive but forced separation. And that's sort of like hanging out over the cliff, so to speak, is what allows them to sort of figure out what they're capable of.

Dan Heath: Eric Sasson runs Camp Akeela in Vermont with his wife, Debbie. That conversation with Eric was special for me because it relates to my own work. I wrote a book a few years ago with my brother, Chip, called "The Power of Moments." It's about how you can be conscious about creating memorable, meaningful experiences for the people you care about. Customers, employees, your family, or in Eric's case, your campers. The story of his camp reinforced so many of the themes from that book. What makes experiences unusually meaningful? Well, start with novelty. Doing things that are very different from your ordinary routines. So try bunking with a bunch of people you've never met in the wilderness with no parents around. That's novelty. Moments are meaningful when we stretch ourselves, getting out of our comfort zones and trying things that are a challenge. And new connections make moments meaningful. Like the hike with someone new where you talk and talk and talk and at the end, you come away thinking, "I may have just met my best friend." Eric and his wife are the orchestrators of all that. And making memories requires infrastructure. It means running a commercial kitchen and a village scale sewage system and a healthcare clinic. And it means finding and supervising 100 young adults who are willing to stay off their phones and attend to your campers. And sometimes, it means singing a song around a campfire and knowing that the fact that people are crying means it was an experience worth cherishing. Folks, that's what it's like to be a summer camp director. This episode was produced by Matt Purdy. I'm Dan Heath, take care.